Sean Meighan
General => Lights => Topic started by: babybear on January 16, 2016, 03:44:49 PM
-
Ok I working on next years displays. I'm using strip lighting cutting them up and soldering them back together. working with the 18 gauge is a little.... Would cat 5 be better? Im going to make 2 more (at least) and 2 candles.
-
I don't think in this case cat5 would be better. I do think bullet nodes would be better.
Just my opinion, since you asked.:)
James
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
-
Looking at two things here. I'm not looking for better performance but just the ease of assembly. I'm thinking soidering a smaller solid wire easier than the strands. Or going to 22gauge. Now, strip Lighting ver bullets. On my snowflakes I'm using 40 nodes. In bullets that's 40 LEDs where in the strips I get 120 LEDs. The strips lay flat with the LEDs face outwards. Bullets on there side or depth issue. That part everyone has their likes. Yes I'm the odd one. As for your opinion I do appreciate you response. Here to learn.
-
Looking at two things here. I'm not looking for better performance but just the ease of assembly. I'm thinking soidering a smaller solid wire easier than the strands. Or going to 22gauge. Now, strip Lighting ver bullets. On my snowflakes I'm using 40 nodes. In bullets that's 40 LEDs where in the strips I get 120 LEDs. The strips lay flat with the LEDs face outwards. Bullets on there side or depth issue. That part everyone has their likes. Yes I'm the odd one. As for your opinion I do appreciate you response. Here to learn.
You said it right. It's opinion. Everyone has their personal tastes.
There are other wire connection methods that could speed the process up. Personally, I still like soldering and heat shrink.
James
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
-
That is probably a good use for strip pixels. I did something similar and used 22ga wire. It is still running fine (3 seasons).
-
I have used those other systems for a quick repair on the top of my mega tree, yep up 23 feet. took longer to get up there than make the fix
-
Back to original post.... I use cat5 for everything. I double up org-org/white, blue-blue/white, etc. I am using three wire WS2811 strips so I am not using the brown-brown/white wires. I used cat5 for signals/power and for power injection successfully in 2015. It is a bit tedious to work with since it so small, you have to un-twist, then re-twist, etc. But I figured since I had a 1000' of it might as well use it for everything. One thing I might do this year is get a different color jacket for power injection so it is crystal clear which ones are signal and which ones are power injection....
-
Just realize cat5 has a low current limit, even if you double/triple up.
If you run power through it, please be careful.
James
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
-
the way the lights lay out there is no more than 6 nodes or 18 LEDs per connection 6 of them. At that point they all group up and turn into 16 gauge that will pick up the poll, another 60 nodes, 180 LEDs power injected at each 20/60, and back to my power supply. that's a total of 100 nodes/ 300 LEDs per setup running back to the power supply. I will be using cat5 after leaving the displays for data only and 16 gauge for power. I'm going to keep them separate for data interference. power supplies will be around the yard where needed. What I think is funny is the amps per roll, they say 3.2. Last year I had 2 rolls per 5 amp fuse and many time had all white going and never blew a fuse. So what is the true watts or amps per roll.
-
So what is the true watts or amps per roll.
I don't go by the specs, I command all white (full load) and measure current with an amp clamp. So far, actual has been less than stated.
James
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
-
Thanks James. I appreciate the warning. I double up the "regular" plus-minus-data wires and the cat5 I am using for power I use all eight conductors, four plus four minus. I will heed your warning!!! This worked fine in 2015.....
-
As for using Cat5 for data are you double that up to? I was always told thats a no no as when the same data goes down two different wires and one hits a little resistance the data would get there at different times and cause issues.
-
Hmmm. Maybe doubling up my data isn't a good idea... I used the green-green/white pair for data. No problems with this on two megatrees and six arches.
-
There is no problem shorting two conductors together for the data line. Changes to voltage on one end of the line appear almost instantaneously at the other end of the wire at near the speed of light. A slight variation in resistance between two twisted pair wires isn't going to slow anything down.
-
I agree that you could use multiple strands for data, but I can't see any benefit in two strands versus one.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
-
Why don't you think voltage drop plays a factor in the voltage levels on the data line?
-
Why don't you think voltage drop plays a factor in the voltage levels on the data line?
Honestly, I guess I'm confused on how data works. I guess I thought it was more immune.
What is the working voltage on the data line?
James
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
-
I don't know what voltage runs down the line either. I assume there has to be a threshold that is crossed to indicate a zero or one so I was assuming using double wires would lower total resistance and allow you to have a longer run before going over that threshold is not possible. Otherwise it would mean you could go an unlimited distance on the data line with no minimum wire size. It's probably not a big deal but I kinda like how solid it makes the wires feel that I'm screwing into the connector when I solder those two conductors together instead of bending one back.
-
This is the quote I read on Data on a cat5 line
{You can only run data from 1 output on 1 wire. Data, unlike power and ground, is single path. You cannot run the same data on two wires, the signal cannot be split and put back together. Just wanted to clarify. Depending on how you run your display you can realistically run up to 4 controller outputs on 1 cat5 wire since there are 4 pairs (need the ground wrap around data to get the distance}
Can anyone say if this is true or not
-
If that's the case then my whole display shouldn't be working....lol. Believe whatever you want. I have a EE degree but I trust field testing more than anything I ever read in a book any day.
-
My brother who was a data expert I thought had told me at one time Data only runs on the outside of a wire thats why data lines are solid and not stranded. I have to find that out..
-
Im here to learn, There are so many post out there it gets confusing.
-
If that's the case then my whole display shouldn't be working....lol. Believe whatever you want. I have a EE degree but I trust field testing more than anything I ever read in a book any day.
I do NOT have an EE degree and that was my quote babybear posted and aussie phil has come off the top ropes several times on my posts....I only know what I experience as Gil says and it seems we have lots of different experiences in this hobby. Honestly this is only the very beginning of my 3rd year so I'm still relatively new so let me repeat Gil's last statement....TRUST FIELD TESTING MORE THAN ANYTHING. Go try it and test and find what works best for you. You may find something new that none of us have found (many products like post-its and wd-40 are the result of testing what was supposed to happen only to find something completely different and useful).
-
I hope I did not offend you, That was not what I was trying to do. I just agree with what you are saying
-
I hope I did not offend you, That was not what I was trying to do. I just agree with what you are saying
Not at all. I'm still learning too.
-
Well I've been stuck doing software most of my career so I freely admit my degree doesn't mean a lot anymore. That's when I ask the smart folks around me. Most people are running WS2811 chips at 800KHz so our cable lengths are not long enough for using 2 conductors to make enough of an error to matter.
-
To me when you give up on learning you give up in life.
I also will never mock anyone for asking a question.
-
I don't know what voltage runs down the line either. I assume there has to be a threshold that is crossed to indicate a zero or one so I was assuming using double wires would lower total resistance and allow you to have a longer run before going over that threshold is not possible. Otherwise it would mean you could go an unlimited distance on the data line with no minimum wire size. It's probably not a big deal but I kinda like how solid it makes the wires feel that I'm screwing into the connector when I solder those two conductors together instead of bending one back.
I was assuming the data would be limited to 100m like you normally see on cat5. I don't know either way, it was just an assumption.
I agree with the other posts about real world tests. As long as it works and you aren't breaking laws, codes, restrictions, etc., go for it.
James
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
-
That explains it to me. Thanks
-
On my first display I ran 25' 16gauge 4 wire on a E682. the data was a mess. Once pulled the data out of the cable ran it on its own 18gauge wire I was back up and running. I personally will never run data and power in the same line again. Live and learn. LOL
-
If I did not run data and power in the same wire, my display would not be working. I have many props connected using cat5 and also many connected with 10ft or more of 3pin waterproof extension cables. I am using hubs with my controllers (uSC and Lynx SSC) placed right at the prop. 6 wires total for power and 2 for data using the cat5. Works like a champ. That's my real life experience. Been doing it this way for 4 years. Been doing animated lighting for 8 years.
-
I'm thinking a lot of my data issues were two things The length of my run with E682 and the amount of rain and snow. next season with F16v2 my issues will disappear. Im hoping...
-
There is a bit of speculation and hearsay bouncing around in this thread. Here's my take on a few of the things I see...
Just realize cat5 has a low current limit, even if you double/triple up.
Not sure what you heard, but you might be confusing voltage with amperage. Cat5 has no lower current limit than any other 24awg wire and it *CAN* carry more current when you double/triple up.
What makes Cat-5 different when it comes to power is the conductors have very thin insulation so it has a low VOLTAGE limit - even if you double/triple up it is limited to about 100 volts max. But each conductor can carry about 0.5A and if you bond two conductors together then it can carry 1A. Three together can carry 1.5A ... as long as you stay under about 50 WATTS.
As for using Cat5 for data are you double that up to? I was always told thats a no no as when the same data goes down two different wires and one hits a little resistance the data would get there at different times and cause issues.
This might be true it two independent data lines took two completely different paths. But with a twisted pair, they are the same resistance and the same length and the same path. Bonding the pair as one conductor will have less total resistance and less voltage loss.
I don't know what voltage runs down the line either. I assume there has to be a threshold that is crossed to indicate a zero or one so I was assuming using double wires would lower total resistance and allow you to have a longer run before going over that threshold is not possible.
The voltage on the data line is 5 volts. This is true for both 5v AND 12v pixel strings. Thats because the 2811 chip is a 5v chip and it generates the data out signal. 12v strings drop the 12v down to 5v to power the 2811 chip and the chip can only output a 5v data signal.
You are correct that double wires will lower total resistance. However it will increase the capacitance. Since data is a modulated signal, its a bit more complicated to determine if the extra capacitance will hurt the signal more than the lower resistance will help the signal. This is where field testing becomes crucial. However, at these speeds (~800Khz) and relatively short distances (<100m) its probably a wash to use one conductor or two for the data line.
I prefer to use one conductor for the data signal and use the other conductor in the same twisted pair as ground for the data. Its NOT because the ground "shields" the data as some people think. I do it this way because for a single-ended data signal, ground is the reference. Carrying ground in the same twisted pair as the data helps make ensure same ground reference at the receiving end as I do at the sending end.
But the bottom line is that in this application either way probably yields about the same results.
My brother who was a data expert I thought had told me at one time Data only runs on the outside of a wire thats why data lines are solid and not stranded. I have to find that out..
This is a big stretch of the truth. Its true that higher frequency signals tend to run on the "skin" of the conductor rather than throught the "core" of the conductor. But this doesn't really apply to our relatively slow data rates of less than 1Mhz.
Most people are running WS2811 chips at 800KHz so our cable lengths are not long enough for using 2 conductors to make enough of an error to matter.
Exactly!
I was assuming the data would be limited to 100m like you normally see on cat5. I don't know either way, it was just an assumption.
Again, the 100m limit for Cat5 has to do with the high speed data signaling used for two-way ETHERNET. The 100m limit does not apply for low speed one-way serial signaling that we are using. But as already mentioned, resistance and capacitance will ultimately determine how far the signal can be carried before it can no longer be reconized by the receiver. But its not necessarily limited to the 100m limit for other Cat5 applications.
-
LOL. How did we get so far off my original post...... All I was asking in the building of my snowflake would it be better to soider up strip light with 24gauge solid wire than 18 gauge stranded. No more than 6 nodes 18 LEDs for power and 40 nodes for data.
But still Pixelpuppy thank you for all the info. The more I learn the more I can help others. Your response was not wasted.