Effects from last year's sequences now behave differently

[robskimeister]

There are many effects from my previous year's sequences that are now behaving VERY differently.  I'll do my best to describe & illustrate this.  Hopefully it's not something silly I've done. 

The main thing I noticed is the "center point" of almost all effects is now at a different point.  It's not even close to the actual center.  I'm using the exact same effects on the exact same unchanged models (groups) that I used last year so I'm not sure what changed.

I've included 2 video clips to help illustrate this.  In both clips I use the same test sequence.  In the first clip I use version 4.2.17 and the layout from last year's show.  In the 2nd clip I use version 2016.20 and the proposed layout for the 2016 show. 

Here are the differences:

• Arches:  Circle effect covers all arches in old version; only covers half of the 2 center arches in new version.
• House Outline: Fan, Pinwheel and Circles:  All of these now have different center points.  The center point in the new version is further to the left and further down.  This is also true for other effects with central points such as curtain and bars (not shown in the clips)

Perhaps I have something set up incorrectly in my new layout (or maybe in the old one?), but so far I can't find anything wrong.  I've added a lot since last year, but the affected models were from last year and were not changed.  That's what puzzles me.

I just hope I don't have to change all these effects in my sequences for this year's show.  That could take quite a while!

Any ideas or suggestions?  Has anyone else noticed anything like this in their old sequences?

I've also attached the rgbeffects and sequence files for version 4.2.17 to this post.  I'll include the rest in a 2nd post due to file restrictions.

Please let me know if any additional screen shots or information is needed.

Thanks!

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[robskimeister]

Here are the rest of the files pertaining to the 2016-20 test. 

Thanks again!   

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[Gilrock]

I don't think I need to see any files to take a guess at what might be different.  For one I wrote the Fan effect so I know it's center point did not change.  If you had it in the center of the model its still centered in the model.  So the only thing that could have changed is the model it's being drawn on.  You might say but I didn't change the models either.  Well what did change is the setting that was added to determine how an effect is applied to a model.  I forget the name but it's in one of the panels and the drop-down has entries like "Default" and "Per Preview".  The old way those were defined was by the model definition where you used to have to set it as "Minimal Grid" or "Grid as Per Preview".  Changing that setting actually changes the size of the buffer that an effect renders to which would change the center point.  I didn't do all that work so I'm not sure how old effects were handled when sequences are upgraded to newer versions.  The old way you had to set it in the model and every effect on the model had to render the same way.  With the new method each effect can be set to render it's own way.  So I'm guessing it's that one setting that needs to be updated on your effects.  I'd just pick one effect and play with that setting and see if you can figure it out.  Once you do you might be able to do a global replace to fix it in the XML.  I think Dan's gone for awhile otherwise he would be the expert on these render buffers.

[robskimeister]

Thanks for the info Gil!

what did change is the setting that was added to determine how an effect is applied to a model.  I forget the name but it's in one of the panels and the drop-down has entries like "Default" and "Per Preview".  The old way those were defined was by the model definition where you used to have to set it as "Minimal Grid" or "Grid as Per Preview".

Yes, the models were set as "Grid as Per Preview" in the old layout.  In fact ALL my models are set that way.

Surely that doesn't that mean I have to change every effect in all my sequences. ?   

I've tried changing the Render Style in the drop-down from "Default" to "Per Preview" in my new layout, but it's still not the same as before.  The arches have different patterns and the center points of the other effects are still not in the same spot as before.  They're closer, but still not the same.

I'm not sure how old effects were handled when sequences are upgraded to newer versions.

With software like Xlights I'd think it would be an absolute necessity for old effects to be handled exactly the same way in any new versions.  Otherwise you're going to have a lot of frustrated users once they realize half their effects are broken & they now have to redo all their sequences.  I hope I'm not going to be one of them. 

Hopefully there's a simple answer / solution. 

[Phrog30]

I thought Gil offered a simple solution. Try to get one effect working. Once you realize what you need to do, you should be able to globally change that within the xml file by search and replace.

James

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[Gilrock]

Are you on regular models or model groups?  I thought the minimal grid versus grid as per preview stuff only applied to how buffers are created for groups.  An arch would normally be treated as a single line.  If you want an arch to be treated as an area then that's when Per Preview is used.  There's a lot of people using the program and I haven't heard any other complaints about this so lets figure it out before we start saying the sky is falling.

[robskimeister]

Try to get one effect working. Once you realize what you need to do, you should be able to globally change that within the xml file by search and replace.

I wasn't able to get the effect working the way it was, even when I set "Per preview" in the Render drop-down.  There are noticeable differences.

Are you on regular models or model groups?  I thought the minimal grid versus grid as per preview stuff only applied to how buffers are created for groups.  An arch would normally be treated as a single line.  If you want an arch to be treated as an area then that's when Per Preview is used.  There's a lot of people using the program and I haven't heard any other complaints about this so lets figure it out before we start saying the sky is falling.

The test sequence is using model groups.  Groups are the only things that I've noticed that are different so far, but I haven't had time to compare every little thing.  I think I set my models to "Grid per Preview" way back in 2015 when I imported some effects and they would only work with this setting.  Not sure if that helps?

[Gilrock]

If they were and/or are per preview then their position on the Layout screen matters.  I'd have to check with Dan as to whether there was any slight changes to the position on the screen with the Layout changes.  I know the positions are stored as percentages now and not sure if that was a change.  If it's that type of change that affected it then there is no way we would be able to keep a backwards compatible engine to make sure an effect never changes.

[keithsw1111]

Thanks for the info Gil!

With software like Xlights I'd think it would be an absolute necessity for old effects to be handled exactly the same way in any new versions.  Otherwise you're going to have a lot of frustrated users once they realize half their effects are broken & they now have to redo all their sequences.  I hope I'm not going to be one of them. 

Hopefully there's a simple answer / solution.

We take backward compatibility with sequences very seriously. I know of only one intentional breaking change so far this year and that is the piano effect. Every other change was either designed to not break old behaviour or included code to automatically upgrade old sequences. If you are seeing differences it is almost certainly a bug. It may not be easy to fix but it was not intentional.

[Phrog30]

I would be happy to look at the files later and see if I can see anything obvious. It won't be until later though.

James

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Gilrock]

I can look later tonight also but what would really help is give me a specific effect to compare like "Fan effect at the 1:23 mark on model XYZ".  Maybe you have something in the videos but I can't watch them till later either.

[Gilrock]

All I can say is yes I can see its changed but I'm not familiar with the buffer and rendering changes enough to figure out why.

[robskimeister]

Sorry, haven't had a chance to get back on the forums until now.

what would really help is give me a specific effect to compare like "Fan effect at the 1:23 mark on model XYZ

The effects in the test sequences are all within the first 10 seconds.  I guess you've probably already had a chance to check it out by now, though.  Please let me know if you need me to provide any other files or information.

I also noticed differences in other effects that may help to track down this issue.  For instance, curtain and bars.  Try droping a curtain effect on the HOUSE OUTLINE that opens/closes in the center using my old layout in the old version.  Then play the same sequence in my new layout in the new version and you should see differences in the center point.  I noticed the same thing with bars.  I'm sure there are other effects with similar issues too.

Here's some other interesting info that might also help.  I tried playing around with the "circles" effect that's used on the arches in my test sequence.  This is what I found when I tried this effect using both of my layouts (new/old) in both versions of Xlights in various combinations:

The effect does NOT work with my NEW layout in the NEW Xlights version (2016.20)
The effect does NOT work with my NEW layout in the OLD Xlights version (4.2.17)
The effect does NOT work with my OLD layout in the NEW Xlights version (2016.20)
The effect DOES work with my OLD layout in the OLD Xlights version (4.2.17)

Hopefully this may help track down the issue. 

We take backward compatibility with sequences very seriously.

I'm definitely glad to hear that!   

Thanks again to all who are looking into this!   

Hopefully if this is a bug, it'll save others from having possible issues when the bulk of users start sequencing later in the year.  I'm probably just about the only Christmas nut who starts sequencing songs in March!    

[Gilrock]

There is only 1 thing that moves the center point.  A different render buffer size.  Your model group is getting a different buffer size in the new version so the center point is shifted.  I could see if very easy by viewing your render buffer in the Effect Assist window.  For version 2016.20 just goto Settings -> Effect Assist Window -> Always On and then click an effect on the model and you will see the buffer size.  You may need to pull out the panel and stretch it big across the screen to get a model that big to show up.  Then in version 4.2.17 the process is pretty much the same except that not all effect will show in the assist so you need to drop a morph or pictures effect to see the grid size.  I did that could see you have two different grid sizes between the version for your model group.  Dan is gone for awhile but he is the expert on these buffer size calculations.  That's why I say I don't think it's any bug its just a change in how model group buffers are calculated.  Any time you place a new model on the layout it will have the potential to move the center point.  You could probably just adjust all your models in the Layout and fine tune where the center point lands now.

[robskimeister]

I just downloaded the latest version (2016.22) and I'm still having this issue.  I saw that Dan had posted a few times since my post... wasn't sure if he was officially "back" yet or if he had a chance to take a look at this yet.  If not, that's fine and I'm in no rush.  ...just don't want this issue to be forgotten. 

just goto Settings -> Effect Assist Window -> Always On and then click an effect on the model and you will see the buffer size.

Maybe I'm an idiot, but I've tried all sorts of models, and I've stretched the effect assist window all the way across the screen.  All I see is a green box with a red X.  On a couple of models I get a box with grid lines and a red X.  I don't see any buffer sizes anywhere, though.  I also looked in the manual but couldn't find much info about using this window.  I'm using only 1 monitor...  does that have anything to do with it perhaps?

Any time you place a new model on the layout it will have the potential to move the center point.  You could probably just adjust all your models in the Layout and fine tune where the center point lands now.

That makes perfect sense, but I tested the exact same effects on the exact same models and got very different results; the only difference was the version of Xlights.

The effect does NOT work with my OLD layout in the NEW Xlights version (2016.20)
The effect DOES work with my OLD layout in the OLD Xlights version (4.2.17)

So it's not model changes that are causing the issues in my particular case.

Are there any model settings that may fix this without breaking something else?  I tried "Minimal grid" instead of "Grid per preview" on the arches, but got same result, so it's not that.  I'll play around with the layout settings some more if I get a chance.